Post-Pandemic Exhaustion, in conversation with Rosalie Harrison

Rosalie Harrison and Andrew Kris discuss how business professionals are no longer "in shape" for work travel and in-person meetings, as well as how the expectations about work schedules is changing.

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Rosalie Harrison: 0:05

On this issue of how tiring it is for people to travel, I had two candidates go into Copenhagen the other day, neither one of them had done much traveling at all in the last couple years because of COVID. It was the first time that they were traveling for business. And they..the travel was scheduled in and out in the same day with a full slate of interviews. And they both recorded being absolutely exhausted to the point where it was really hard to be excited about the engagement that they had during the day. And I'm wondering if this is something that we should be raising with people that they have to be more thoughtful because there's also all the other requirements of all the COVID tests you have to do so all the added stress?

Andrew Kris: 0:43

Well, I just wondered whether that was what was making it a much more complex process than just getting to the airport and getting on the plane. And we were also complained about the striptease, we have to do every time to get there, that's already a tremendous chore. On top of that, you need to take pre-test, post-test, make sure you arrive with the vaccination certificates. Which one of our clients is saying, by the way, you can't come in unless you can show your certificates into our offices?

Rosalie Harrison: 1:07

Yeah, no, I've heard that too. Or maybe even wearing your mask all day is also extremely tiring. So maybe, you know, people should be taking that into account when they bring somebody in just for the day, in and out, there should maybe be built even into the day, the interview day, some downtime,

Andrew Kris: 1:20

I was thinking about the same thing with regard to maybe staying up the night before traveling even before staying in a hotel, there are some people that find that relaxing. On the other hand, the whole pallava of getting into hotel, you know, going through exactly the same methods. Again, that may be actually more tiring than doing a day trip.

Rosalie Harrison: 1:36

Yeah, it might be. But I do think there's an element that we used to have a lot of stamina for this that we've lost, you know, by being at home, because I had another client say to me, why don't know, the candidate was not near as enthusiastic in person as they were on video. And I thought, well, a lot of that was because, you know, getting to you to do it in person is harder than it used to be.

Andrew Kris: 1:57

Well, yeah, perhaps the saying why was I doing this before? You know, a lot of us, you know, spend three to three flights a week at an airport and now saying, and why was I doing that? I mean, it's just such a tremendous issue. By the time you walk two miles to your plane, and gone through the whole hassle, and you wonder what the hell am I here for, and if the day really hasn't begun to you're actually at your clients or at the place where you're going to be interviewed. And so there's definitely something to that. And I wonder what we can do to help clients be cognizant of the fact that they're putting candidates through stress. Although, you know, you can argue too, Rosalie, that if you're working with a PR company, you're going to go through exactly the same stress going to clients and so on, though, you could argue, Well, you better be robust enough, if you can't meet the interview, because that's how you're going to be with a client.

Rosalie Harrison: 2:46

Yeah, I think that's true. I think what I see in all my interviews, and my discussions with clients is there's this tendency to talk about our work world as though after COVID It'll be what it was before COVID, or even that there will be an after COVID. And I think the reality is that we have shifted and changed and to talk about the way we used to travel as something that we're going to go back to is probably not realistic anymore, we probably should be having different discussions.

Andrew Kris: 3:11

What's interesting, the airlines already making accommodation for that, not just in turning down their flights, because they have no passengers today, but also longer term. They're saying we think that actually, leisure travel will become the dominant force compared to we're just taking business guys around every day of the week on several times a week. So I think that's airlines already recognizing that.

Rosalie Harrison: 3:32

Yeah, they think so too. So I think our conversations have to catch up, we have to stop when we start talking about what we did two years ago, as though that was the norm and will be again, we have to stop and say, maybe that's not going to be anymore.

Andrew Kris: 3:43

And don't ask somebody to come back several times for different interviews, scheduling is a lot lot more important.

Rosalie Harrison: 3:49

I also think that COVID is not our only disruption that's risen to a greater degree. I had one client told me that they have 12 different suppliers who have used their force majeure part of their contract, which means they can't deliver for acts of nature or act. And none of them were COVID-based. They were all because of climate based issues, hurricanes and landslides and the freezing in Texas that some companies haven't recovered from.

Andrew Kris: 4:15

Exactly, yeah. Oh, chemical industry is in a tremendous flux and prices are really shot up actually save the year for some producers as a consequence of all the climate issues. Yeah, I also think the social issue issues behind that, too. So COVID is one good reason. But also and we've noticed that already for several years, people said no, no, I'll commute rather than make a physical move with all my family because they're going to be traveling five days a week, and as a consequence to that my family is disrupted, whereas they could maintain a social network wherever they are, and I'll do the traveling, but then you can also argue, but are you still gonna travel five days a week? No. So I turn around as a consequence is worth contemplating. Yeah, I think for some of the HR people we've talked to, and some of the executives, I think is worth thinking about what the influence was on their organizations.

Rosalie Harrison: 5:04

Yeah, I'm hearing more from people that they will travel as needed, that they may travel a lot more in the beginning as they establish their relationships. And they'll come in for special meetings, especially when innovation and creativity and collaboration is required. But they're not committing to traveling every week anymore, especially not five days. They're all asking for hybrid arrangements or flexible arrangements, which are really flexible. Not this is another thing I've been really thinking about is, I've seen so many companies define flexibility, which is counterintuitive. Once you define flexibility, it's not flexibility anymore. So that's another issue. I think we need to put our arms around and understand that they really can be flexible, that's still focused on making sure that performance is high, and businesses is done. And if those two things are met, then there's a lot of room to be flexible.

Andrew Kris: 5:53

You're absolutely right. Of course, there's so much talk going on about the changing society and all of those things right now. But it's important not to forget the point that you make, ultimately, you have to be able to do your job well. Otherwise somebody else is going to be doing it. I mean, that's a simple fact of life. Right? So it's nice to have the flexibility but behind all of that must be some rigor in performance. That may also mean your business model has to change.

Rosalie Harrison: 6:18

Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's one of the things employers sometimes forget when they're talking about flexibility. They forget they still have the tool of making sure that people perform that's that never goes away, right?

Andrew Kris: 6:28

That never goes away.