Navigating the Challenges of Expatriation: Insights from Dr. Catherine Koini and Andrew Kris

In this episode of the Borderless Executive Live Podcast, Dr. Catherine Koini and Andrew Kris share their personal experiences and insights on living and working abroad as an expat. From managing stress and anxiety, to adapting to a new culture, Catherine and Andrew offer valuable advice and strategies for navigating the challenges and rewards of expatriation. Tune in to hear their stories and expert insights on thriving in a new environment.

Dr. Catherine Koini: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinekoini/ 
Andrew Kris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewkris/ 

Transcript

6:08

Catherine, welcome! We're really pleased to have you join us. I know this is a subject that's often discussed but very rarely understood. You experienced personally the ups and downs and downs of expatriation and the benefits of course but what actually led you to specialize in this area? Firstly, thank you for that warm introduction Andrew. It's really great to be here with you today. In answer to how I got into this whole area of research, and also kind of my destiny of my career choice. It was very much that about 12 years ago, my family and I left London and we moved to Frankfurt for our first international transition. And it was quite a difficult transition for all of us. It wasn't smooth in any way and as with everything given a bit of time things got easier. After about five years we moved to Belgium and navigated a second international transition. What was quite interesting about that transition was that whilst it was easier for me because I had already done it once- for our children they all experienced it in quite different ways. So it started to make me question a little bit about what is the right thing to do- Is expatriation right for our family? Or should we ultimately just settle in one place? Because one of our children at the time really had a difficult time settling into his new school. So I kind of did a little research on the literature on what was out there. And I actually was surprised at just how sort of doomy and gloomy the outlook was. A lot of the literature talked about loss, anxiety, grief, all these really quite negative experiences were coming through. So I then thought, you know, well surely this can't all be it. And it was at a point where I had given up my career in Frankfurt to support my husband's career. Well, you you're an honest to goodness, financial services executive, of course, I should have mentioned that earlier. You're not coming at this as an academic. Not at all. No. And then of course moving to Belgium it meant sort of being if you like pulled out of an industry that I was very familiar with. And I'd always had an interest in psychology and I thought if not now, when? So I decided to embark on a career change which involved a lot of study- about six to seven years of study of a master's in psychology and then I ended with a PhD in educational psychology. And really, I suppose the reason why I was drawn to this particular area was because I suppose I had such a personal interest. I really wanted to find out what is the impact of international transition on Family wellbeing. Is it the right thing for my family ultimately and I wanted them to be able to support other families in making those choices- supporting them navigate international transition. Yeah, indeed. And you know if you have, maybe we should think about that a little bit. I mean your study was necessary in your view because there's actually not so much coherent material around on this subject. A lot of people write about it but it doesn't seem to be any approach to this on a continuous basis. Lots people give really good advice but there's nobody really studied this over a period. I think you brought all these studies together as part of your Doctoral research. Didn't you? Yeah, that's right. So historically, research in this area has tended to still look at the experiences of adults third culture kids so maybe they're in their 40s 50s. And they're looking back on their experiences as a child, maybe living in Hong Kong, China, Africa, etc. But what we know is that when we look back on those experiences- they're useful but we need to get up to date information because obviously if you transition to a new country now your experiences are going to be very different than they were as an adult third culture kid. So really I wanted to fill this gap of knowledge by actually undertaking a year long study in this field because I think part of the problem about international transition is that it's not really very correctly understood and a lot of people talk about transition as this one off event. And Andrew I know you've experienced multiple transitions. Indeed. Only four or five times, yes absolutely. Just only! So more than me. So you might well have had the question "how was the transition?" as if it was a meal in a restaurant and it somehow had an end. And what we know from international transition is that it is an ongoing process. It's an ongoing process that also requires ongoing support. My particular research in this area is actually the first study to obtain the views of several different families over a period of one year. Because obviously you will look back and of course will remember all the good times and sometimes some of the hardships but that first year- you're really going up and down all the time aren't you in terms of what you're experiencing. Definitely. I mean we as humans we sort of if you like inhabit these different domains, if you can imagine in our mind- we have a psychological domain, a professional domain and an educational domain for children. So when you embark on an international transition, all of these domains are in a state of flux because there are so many multiple changes going on. Yeah, there's a lot of practical stuff very often. Some moves are easier than others practically but they create an immense amount of stress. I think we definitely- we're not prepared for those stresses. I think we've just said"Well you're going to go here, and we think well that's exciting'". We may even have gone to that location, wherever it was- France or in the US or Switzerland. We've just gone for a look-see but that's about all the preparation we had. I think you making the point I think in your study that early preparation is really quite critical from a family perspective. How do you phrase that? You're completely right. I think in terms of guidance for families, one of the top things to take away from our conversation is that 'early preparation is key'. Now that's not to say if you prepare early you're not going to encounter difficulties. But what the research has actually shown is that early preparation can help to ease anxiety and the worry about the unknown. So as parents it's really critical that you prepare your children early on. You have those open conversations. Whether that's in the car or around the dinner table. Just get talking, and prepare as early as possible for the move. You make a point about a familiar home environment that you have those discussions upfront. Prepare the children and of course prepare your spouse with that early preparation. There's also this whole aspect of whether you're going to have a quick day visit or actually some people are pretty generous and come for the weekend and take a look. Actually we have somebody going to Indonesia right now doing exactly that. What about the preparation and familiarization aspect of all of this? How does that work? So what really is key is to familiarize yourself as early as possible in the new environment. This doesn't just mean- as you mentioned about this family going to Indonesia for a weekend. If possible try to schedule a couple of visits to the new country and the new place you're going to be living and of course to the school as well. That really is crucial because what we see more and more is that the lack of familiarisation is causing a huge amount of anxiety for expat children. Just not knowing maybe what the physical structure of the school looks like, just the fact that they haven't even met that teacher, let's say Miss Tracy. All these basic things that we take for granted maybe as adults are so important for children. So early familiarization is key and not just thinking okay- one induction day is going to be enough when it's actually not going to be enough. If you can where possible get your kids in maybe in the last week of the school year when they're playing a bit more and it's not so sort of academically focused because then they've just got that sense of knowing where things are, who the peers are and who the teachers are. That really will help alleviate some of that unnecessary stress. Yes. You're suggesting that maybe the kids go to the school they're going to be at is a wonderful way to at least make some acquaintances if not friends up in advance. I recall in our case, one of our children did a day- exactly the same way. As a consequence, what I found was the school school shut down after that for the summer break and we were due to move in at the end of August, September but during that period we were absolutely astonished to see that there were constant social media exchanges with the kids that she had met in those classes and by the time she arrived, she knew the kids. And that was all because they took a day of familiarisation so the investment was incredibly worthwhile. Of course, you know if your children are happy. By definition you're only as happy as your least happy child. Right? So, you know, that's an enormous pressure taken off the children. Yeah, that's right. Very good point. That's really I would say one critical point to take away is to familiarize your children as early as possible. I was going to come back on one other point, just coming back to the amount of preparation- kind of the induction day and talking to people before you leave. Of course, it's nice to talk people who've been resident in those countries. Very often, in my experience the induction is done by somebody rather well meaning, you know, perhaps somebody from HR who has got all the process in place and really understands what the processes are but may not have actually lived in the country that you're going to- probably not. You know one of the things that we did in in my real life before becoming a consultant was that we would actually bring in people that had lived there or had expatriated to those countries who were now no longer there could brief as a little bit talk about how life really was in the country we were about to go to and that was incredibly helpful. It just reinforces your point about really strong early preparation. It's not a house hunting visit. You need to take the time and all of those things, house hunting is important of course. Of course, yeah. And just going back to what you mentioned about HR. What really I think HR professionals can do or what they probably do need is some form of formal transition training. Because as you said Andrew a lot of the time you've got some HR members of staff that maybe have not experienced international transition. Maybe they have on their own, but they haven't in combination with other family members which we know is much more complex. For example, bringing children along with you so some form of formal transition training for HR teams is really important. I'm assuming that is something you would do actually. You have developed some programmes as a consultant for that. Yes, that’s right. And then sort of on top of that as well as the formal transition training is just I think corporates and employers need to develop a shared understanding of what international transition is. That it is this ongoing process of adaptation and it's not a one off event. That really can go a long way just to have that understanding. Yeah. In terms of- you know we've spent a bit of time talking about children but of course parents have quite a struggle sometimes too because the roles can change can’t they particularly- you know as you've done. You stopped your career and there you obviously taken up a fresh career but there's this parental role stuff that really often doesn't get discussed. How do you feel about that? I think that what is really crucial is for the partners to have a discussion or a pre-discussion of the parental roles. So that's as early as possible. That's definitely way before you're signing any contract and agreeing to move. I think that you really need to have this open conversation about who's going to do what when you move so if you both decide you're going to work fine that's great. How's it gonna work in practice? Who's going to then pick up the kids? What other support are you going to get in place, but also, I think it just needs to be clear and agreed and upfront- in advance about who does what. From my own experience and also from the findings of my research a lot of parents did feel a loss of identity because they moved and suddenly their professional role had evaporated overnight. So that obviously then triggered psychological transitions of feeling unhappy because they didn't have this identity. They didn't feel anymore- you know "I am an NHS worker" or something along those lines. You tend to associate yourself with your profession of course. Yeah, of course. And then if you lose your profession it can mean obviously losing your social network because a lot of your friends, your colleagues, and who you meet on a daily basis. So I think it's paramount to have those discussions upfront about who's going to do what and I think companies can do a lot here as well to support the spouse. If they want to work- I mean not everybody moves and actually has that internal requirement that they want to work or continue with their career. But if we do then I really would recommend that employers support spouses with maybe updating or helping with the CV or exploring work opportunities or it could even be voluntary opportunities. What is so important is that having a sense of role is really needed for all of us and sometimes just being a stay at home mom is just not going to be enough. Or a house husband for that matter. Absolutely. So, really good point to make there. And some companies are quite good actually saying we'll help you. Local agencies or even in our business we may have a role for you to do something else. Some companies are good at that but others completely disregard it and say well it's over to you and it's up to you."It's your move. You decide." And that's really not very helpful. Of couse the whole point we're making here Catherine is that the easier the transition and the less stress there is on transition the better that particular employee will perform. That's really often forgotten in this whole equation. You know if your private life and your personal life and your kids are happy you're going to do so much better in your job. Right? Definitely. So it's actually quite a short sighted approach to think okay well I've offered the expat a good contract. They found a nice house and so forth. To really make transitions successful and obviously we all want the transition to be successful. The spouse needs to be supported and obviously we need to ensure that the transition into the new school is also successful. Indeed, yeah. So when I'm looking at you know if you look back on that study that you did kind of 12 months on largely the initial pain is gone you know how to get the gas fitter in and you know how to get all that stuff done. Hopefully after about a year if you managed to get the gas person in within a year that'll be really good. But in any case, you know all that initial stuff is done. How do you see the benefits working out if you're looking longer term both from of course professional point of view is pretty clear is to set you up for other roles- that experience is so essential particularly if you're going into general management where you're managing a large company but also from a family point of view there's some really strong benefits once these initial difficulties are dealt with, how do you see that? I think what emerges once you've sort of gone through that first initial, challenging year where there are lots of ups and downs is that really after about a year- I know this from my own experience and I'm not sure how it was for you Andrew but also from my year long research. What really came through was that families actually were much more resilient. A lot of them talked about becoming closer and a much cohesive family unit. What was really quite welcoming was that so many talked about- maybe exploring other international opportunities. Even children themselves who were sort of adamant at the beginning 'No, I'm returning. I'm going back home after two years'. They then obtain the wealth of experience and being in a multicultural environment and then start talking about oh actually I might go to the US which was an absolute turnaround. So I think that the positive- or the positives we can take from from all of this is that transition can be very successful. And it can lead to a lot of growth in the family, you know such as unity, cohesity, and so forth. Yes. You're doing a fine job in counselling individuals of course and families. I'm assuming that companies initiate that process and you're there also to help set some of these up and get that greater sensitivity within companies. That's what your current work is if I understand. Catherine, I think we're coming to the end of our discussion. I think we've covered some really terrific points and I, and I do hope that the right people in companies are listening and that expatriates take heart particularly if they're going through some difficulties that help is available and that there is a bright side to it at the end of the day which is beneficial from a professional and a family point of view too. I really appreciate your candid views as well. Catherine, it has been a pleasure to talk with you. I know all of our clients and the executives would have been stimulated through this conversation. What's the best way to contact you? Is that through your website? That's right, through my website. That is doctorkoini.com, right? I know it's a bit of a difficult word. That's no problem Dr. Koini. We will remember Thank you very much, Catherine. Thank you to our audience too for joining us and we'll see you next month for another session of Borderless Executive Live. Thank you. Thank you, Andrew.