Borderless Executive Live: The Podcast

Bicycles, Beards, and Business: How Cultural Blindspots Sink Companies

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Salvador Rivas-Mas shares his journey from a globetrotting backpacker to a cross-cultural consultant working with The Culture Factor (formerly Hofstede Insights), helping organizations navigate cultural differences in international business. Drawing on Professor Hofstede's research and his own experiences working across multiple continents, Salvador explains how understanding cultural dimensions can transform leadership effectiveness and prevent costly business failures.

• Inspired by "The Alchemist" at age 12, Salvador developed a passion for exploring different cultures
• Cross-cultural training provided frameworks to understand and prevent cultural shocks he had experienced
• Management techniques aren't universally transferable - what works in the US may fail in Mexico, India or China
• The Culture Factor has mapped cultural dimensions across 119 countries, providing data-driven guidance
• Dolce & Gabbana lost one-third of their income after a culturally insensitive ad campaign in China
• Only 16% of international mergers add value to businesses, with cultural misalignment being a major factor
• Leadership expectations vary dramatically - cycling to work destroyed a Dutch executive's credibility in China
• In Kenya, young managers must appear older to maintain authority with teams
• Surface-level cultural convergence (clothing, food, entertainment) masks persistent deeper cultural differences
• Salvador's book "Directivos Sin Fronteras" (Executives Without Borders) will soon be available in English

"The survival of humankind will depend to a large extent on the ability of people who think differently to act together." – Professor Hofstede


Andrew Kris:

Hello everybody and welcome to Borderless Executive Live, the podcast. My special guest today is Salvador Rivas-Mas. The best way to describe Salvador is that he's been a globetrotting backpacker since an early age. What, you might ask, has that got to do with our subject today? Well, you need to know that he went on to his work in the United Nations, the International Criminal Court, Médecinsns Frontieres and others, and he's all over the world, including places like Cameroon, Kenya, Liberia, the Netherlands, Egypt, for short and sometimes some longer stays. He's been exposed through this period to different ways of living and working in a borderless fashion as a cross-cultural consultant. With that, let me welcome you, Salvador.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Thank you very much, Andrew, for your invitation to your channel. It's for me an honor and a privilege to be here with you.

Andrew Kris:

Well, it's a great pleasure to have you too. Why don't we just get on with it? So you know, I can understand what stimulated your interest in cultures, but where did it really start for you?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

It all started when I was a kid, because I was lucky enough to read the Alchemist from Pablo Coelho at a very early age. I was only 12. And it was about adventure and discover the world, find treasure the pyramids. I decided I had to discover the world. I also liked the Indiana Jones movies and I decided to be an explorer as well.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Like so many others, British travelers and explorers from the 19th century, dr Livingstone and so on. I was so stimulated by that, and so, when I was a grown-up, I decided to travel, and then made a living out of it.

Andrew Kris:

Very good. And here you are, 30 years later. You're a cross-cultural expert, You're an advisor to companies. So what's that really all about?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

15 years after I started my career, I had training on cross-cultural. I had never heard about this subject. All of a sudden, my trainer helped me realise the realities of the cultural shocks I experienced in my life, why they were happening and, most interestingly, how to avoid these cultural shocks using data, and the research done by Professor Hofstede.

Andrew Kris:

He is the oracle in this area, isn't?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes, his research. Let us adapt our working style to every culture and every nationality, for instance, your leadership style, your instance, your leadership style, your negotiation style, your communication style, because we can use these metrics to be more efficient in our day-to-day work.

Andrew Kris:

His work, of course, is the most quoted across cultural areas. And, in fact, in your work now, you're working with leaders, aren't you? I mean, I saw some references to business, diplomacy and international organizations, NGOs, and so on, and I guess this is a core activity for you. How do you actually do this?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

They are custom-made programs, it's not one fits all, and I need to understand the operations, the countries they work on, the challenges they face, how they look at the future, the markets they want to access With all of this information Polish, their working style. Right, we assume US business techniques work worldwide and that if we want to perform in India, we have to replicate US techniques or if we want to do in China, we need to import Harvard Business School techniques. But when we do this, we fail. I'll give you some examples. Management by objectives it works very well in many countries, but it doesn't work everywhere, because in Mexico, for instance, they expect closer monitors of your task, despite, if you are a senior manager, right, you expect your manager to be closer. Therefore, if you give them management by objectives, it's unlikely that they will perform at their best. They can perform, of course, but we're talking about extra mind, this extra push.

Andrew Kris:

Yes, I can understand that. I think the point you're making is very valid, that one cultural style may work within some cultures, everyone not , and I guess that's what your training is all about, isn't it?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yeah, that's exactly what it is, and the thing is that we don't need to be intuitive here, like my feeling is that in China, this, my feeling is that in India, that we have metrics right and we know for sure.

Andrew Kris:

So I think, if I remember correctly, Hofstede has this chart that says if you're a person from Germany communicating in Japan, where are the ways to address from both perspectives so that you actually begin to communicate right? And that's the essence of how all this works. Are there any countries or cultures that are not?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

We have mapped 119 at this moment. Is that your organization?

Andrew Kris:

That's interesting

Salvador Ribas Mas:

We call it, we are the Culture Factor.

Andrew Kris:

Culture Factor yes.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

We used to be Hofstede Insights and we have done a rebranding now.

Andrew Kris:

I see that Culture Factor, indeed, is now the name of the business right.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

We want to reach the entire world and we are in cooperation with local universities and launching massive samples to gather data.

Andrew Kris:

Well, it sounds like it's never too early to start on this subject. I think it's a wonderful topic and, of course, something that we are bored of dealing with every day this morning conversation with China, this afternoon conversation with Portugal, another conversation later on today with. There are always going to be opportunities to practice, good opportunities to learn from the work that you are doing, but I understand you are writing a book yourself on this topic?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes, and here I have it.

Andrew Kris:

Can you read that out to us please?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes, it's in Spanish still Directivos sin Fronteras, which means Executives Without Borders.

Andrew Kris:

Okay. Matches quite well with the name of your company With the borderless message, inde ed.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

I took Hofstede's work and research and I described a lot of anecdotes that I encountered during my professional experience. Yes, and I explained it because very often, before I got to know Hofstede, I just went, I just worked and tried to tackle the cross-cultural differences intuitively. Therefore, I made a lot of mistakes, I lost a lot of time, I lost business and I had a lot of headaches lost business and I had a lot of headaches.

Andrew Kris:

When we last talked, you mentioned something about a Dolce Gabbana example. Can you maybe explain what that was all about in 2018?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Dolce Gabbana launched a commercial in China, but the truth is that the Chinese people didn't find it very funny. They found it very offensive, they boycotted the brand. Demonstrations in front of their shops and a very strong and aggressive campaign against the brand.

Andrew Kris:

I mean, that's an expensive exercise. But upsetting all your Chinese customers in the wealthiest market for fashion must be a real blow.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

China represented one-third of their income, and it went down. Now they are recovering a bit, but it took them a long time to recover.

Andrew Kris:

We also talked about mergers and acquisitions and when companies get together. Surely that's one of the key examples when you have to make the cultures work. You have some examples.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

I think you called them mixed marriages; it was a funny way to put it, because we all remember, if we're not too young, the marriage between Renault and Volvo.

Andrew Kris:

Renault and Volvo. Yeah, absolutely, French and Swedish cultures: quite different.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes, and the leadership style was different. Eventually, they had to divorce.

Andrew Kris:

Yes, indeed.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Eventually, right, and the same goes for Alitalia and KLM.

Andrew Kris:

Oh yeah, sure, that's very different too.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

And Fiat and Citroën. There is a study by KPMG, that said only 16% of international mergers and acquisitions add value to the business.

Andrew Kris:

So you're suggesting that inability to bring the cultures together is a large part of that?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes, because culture is something you can't see, and don't touch.

Andrew Kris:

Yes.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

And sometimes it's misunderstood. Right, it's something we'll take care of. Right, or we'll do. For instance I've heard some examples of multinational companies, they say okay, we will have the China Day and we will eat Chinese food, or we will have the Mexico Day and will have a presentation about the history of Mexico and see the folklore and so on.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

But it is deeper than that. It goes much deeper. I mean because, for instance, if you pretend to implement a matrix structure in Mexico where you have two direct reports, some people can't work with this. You need to know who's the boss. And if you get two different instructions, what do I do? Right, very difficult and we often misconceive this kind of working styles, and they are important, right? For instance?

Andrew Kris:

he has a lovely example which I picked up on, which is not too dissimilar. We're talking about a Dutch executive with a new subsidiary in Shanghai who decided to take up cycling because it's a good, widespread habit in Netherlands and China of cycling to work. And on his first days he cycled to work and his colleagues and employees were completely destroyed by that. There's something to do with only humble people ride bicycle in China. Was that what it was?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yeah, but it goes. Yeah, indeed, it's this, but it goes deeper, because in China, a leader must. It's not enough to be the leader, but you have to show you are the leader.

Andrew Kris:

Prestige, I think, is the word you use.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yeah prestige and you need to use prestige in a status symbol, like a very expensive watch, and very expensive clothes right.

Andrew Kris:

Yeah.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

And to be very distant, not unrespectful, but distant.

Andrew Kris:

Yes.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

And you need to arrive to work with a luxury car, right. So getting to work with a bicycle it's too humble, right? And it's not that he lost his own prestige, but in several countries, like for instance in China, your boss is not only your boss, your boss is your father, and if your father loses his prestige, your prestige is dragging down as well.

Andrew Kris:

Right. As a leader, you need to be very and so on, and dresses young in Spain, whereas in fact that's not such a good idea, right? Why is that?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yeah, this happened to me when I was in my first professional experience abroad. That was in Kenya.

Andrew Kris:

Yeah.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

And I was 29 years old at the time and I was managing the construction of a hospital in Kenya and I had a team of people and this team they were older than me, like five to 10 years older than me and one of my colleagues, a Danish woman with much more experience than me in that particular context, told me hey, you should pretend to be older, like, hey, let your beard grow, dress up more conservative, speak more conservative, because if your team discovers you are not even 30 years old, your authority as a leader, as a leader of a project, will be questioned.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

It's not enough to be qualified for a leadership position, you need to be senior as well. On age, with the point that in some countries like, for instance, the UK or Sweden, I mean, if you are a talented young leader, you can do it. But if you are a talented young leader in Kenya, for instance, it's better to get a lot of responsibility, but try to not to have responsibility of managing people, managing people. It's very difficult for a young leader to manage people older than them, in particular cultural setting.

Andrew Kris:

Yes, yeah, that's understandable. Of course it is. You know, this whole area of culture was really put on the map by Hofstede, the organization you're working with, and I think he made the point that getting the cultural fit right will ultimately be the key element in whatever makes businesses and countries successful understanding how to deal with their neighbors that may have different styles, but it does look like business techniques are coming together very similarly in many cases. Do you think cultures are converging into a global culture? Can you see?

Salvador Ribas Mas:

that no, actually, that was Hofstede himself made the point, because he said no cultures might be converging at the superficial level, meaning that the way how we dress like, if we are, or the culture, like, the movies we consume, yes, and the food we eat, but how we look at leadership and how we receive the feedback a difficult feedback from our leader. This remains intact.

Andrew Kris:

The more we become similar in the superficial things, the more different we are in our fundamental cultural approaches to life.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yeah, I mean, for instance, I went to Turkey not long ago and the young people they were wearing jeans and the movies in the cinema were Hollywood movies and there is McDonald's all over the place and that's okay. But I mean how they treat their parents and how they communicate in a very subtle manner and how they manage projects. This is very embedded in the culture and this is not changing.

Andrew Kris:

In fact, what you're saying is even over time that you've been around in this world, you've not seen any changes. So it's good to stay respectful of cultures, and I think that hits us in our daily work, of course, but also it's all of our clients. So I think it's particularly you know we're talking to UK companies, of course, but also it's all of our clients, so I think it's particularly you know. Look, we're talking to UK companies, for example, heavily invested in China.

Andrew Kris:

I'm sometimes not sure that they have really yet understood the fundamental cultural differences to be able to adapt their standard management, their communication, us companies we've all lived through those experiences where US companies believe that, believe that number one it's europe and it's not europe. We know it's many, many different cultures across europe, each of which have their own peculiarities or strengths and weaknesses, if you like. So there's quite a lot of work to do. Give me the name of your company again, so we'll look that up yes, for our guests, for our guests of course I'll find that on the web very easily, I think right.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes, yes, and we have also the page of the book Directivos Sin Fronteras, and it will be soon released in English.

Andrew Kris:

Well, we look forward to that, and Babs should be kind enough to let us know Salvador when it's out, and then we'd be more than happy to have our audience informed that the book is available. It's a subject which all of us find fascinating. I think we don't always understand why we're not quite getting through on the topic, but I really commend you for all the work you're doing and your company's doing Salvador, on cross-cultural communication. Let's hope and a big, fervent hope, especially today that we all get much better at that. Yeah.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes.

Andrew Kris:

With your help, there's a good chance. We do that Salvador.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Yes. Adding to this, I love a quote from Professor Hofstede himself. He said the survival of humankind will depend to a large extent of the ability of people who think differently to act together.

Andrew Kris:

Wow, that's a very profound thing, Salvador. He was a pretty profound guy. Dr Hofstede, thank you very much indeed for joining us, and thanks also to all of the listeners we have to our podcast, borders Executive Live, to join us today. Wish you all the very best and thank you to all of you.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Andrewan, t taudience taudience he audience in between cultures.

Andrew Kris:

Thank you.

Salvador Ribas Mas:

Thank you.